UPDATE: The commentary on this thread has gotten out of hand. In fact, many of us--me included have allowed wrath to override charity. Now, I'm not saying that the commenter "Hans Kung" is anything good--I find her to be a....I won't say, because I can't say anything nice. But we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. So I'm closing comments. At least one person has asked me to delete their comments--I'll try, but I have the computer skills of a highly intellegent dog, and i don't know if I can.
At least not in the market place of ideas.
Here are some items that will help me explain what I mean. They are not all from the US, only two of the three. But they have a common thread--shut up pro-lifers, marginalize them, don't let their message be heard. Actually, I think they are afraid of our message. That fear drives them to attempt to remove freedom of speech on this issue.
Item the First:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/Idn/2008/may/80051401.html
In the ongoing saga of the Kansas Planned Parenthood prosecutions, something new has come to light. Actually, not new, but now proven. Obstruction of Justice and suppression of evidence.
Court records that have been released show that District Attorney Phil Cline had subpoenaed documents, unrelated to privacy protected information, that showed instances of records being altered or manufactured--pencil whipping we called it, in the Army. Five minutes later-- FIVE MINUTES!--Attorney General Stephen Six filed a protective order request, resulting in the record and their keeper being ordered not to appear or be turned over.
PP is facing 107 criminal charges in this matter. And, the State Attorney General is trying his damnedest to protect them. Redress of Grievances, access to fair judicial proceedings, is the logical and final protection of free speech, of truth. And this lawyer doesn't want another voice to be heard. In my opinion, he feels that if the truth were to come out, the blow to PP and to the regular feeding of Moloch would be unsustainable. So he moves, possibly illegally, to shut a District Attorney up, rather than have the doings of an abortuary discussed.
Item the Second:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/Idn/2008/may/08051407.html
Again, in Kansas, there is some court action. It seems that the security chief of an abortuary released a "stink bomb" on picketers. Now these folks had already established their legal right to do what they do. George Tiller, who runs the murder for money business, Women's Health Care Services, wasn't happy. People were saying not nice things. Things like: You don't have to do this, there are other alternatives, etc. Some of them even went so far as to point out that they are killing babies there, for money. Contract killers. Even worse, they had some success in convincing women not have their kids killed. Bad for business, that, reduces the customer base.
So, a "stink bomb" is released. People, that's a type of chemical weapon. I a pro-lifer threw such a thing into a "clinic", he/she/they/it/them would be liable to prosecution for terrorist acts. And rightly so. But these gazebos did it, and it is a civil tort case. And, to be sure, the picketers were sickened by the fumes, reporting headache and nausea.
So to shut them up, they were gassed with some homemade concoction, and driven away--no free speech for you!
It reminds me of the folks who, in Austria I think, (perhaps Switzerland? Been a few months) who paid people to act as if they were possessed, to make lascivious gestures and to grope and dry hump the protesters. After all, Christians are so superstitious, they'd just run away. (They didn't.) I saw the videos from this--I don't know Euro-Law, but in the US, in all 50 States, the conduct would count as assault, much of it as sexual assault.
Anything to shut us up.
Item the Third:
http://catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12658
This is from The Land of Oz. At the University of Queensland, a Catholic student group given the choice--shut up or get out. The University students union is calling it "disaffiliation". Here we'd probably call it "thrown off campus". Their horrible crime? They had a "prowoman" "propregnancy" campaign. So, they got told to shut the hell up.
The Newman Society was instructed to take down their materials, and placed on a years probation. They must submit all materials they wish to publicly display to a tribunal of three student union officials, one of which is the president of said union. The guy trying to shut them up.
The basis for this is a 1993 "referendum", in which 1900 voted in favour of abortion, 1400 voted against, and 200 abstained. Out of a student body of 30,000. When Joshua Young, the pres of the student union was asked if this meant other views could not be expressed in campus debate, his answer was direct: "It does".
The Catholics pointed out that the vote only established the Campus as pro choice--it didn't require suppression of other view points.
But for some reason, the pro-aborts don't like it when other viewpoints are expressed, using everything they can think of to silence them. I don't think that they believe that their idea can win in a marketplace of ideas, so they ban others views, or attempt to, or disrupt them so they can't be heard. BTW--in a post below, I wrote about a young man who flat said freedom of speech did not apply to pro-life speech. He had just vandalized a pro-life installation. The post was called "Abortion Supporters Don't Like Free Speech".
Saturday, May 17, 2008
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23 comments:
Before you judge the union president in his actions, you may not know that the union president's hands are tied by the current rules of the union.
As the uq union is a voluntary association, all materials produced by student clubs affiliated to the union need to be approved by the union president. If the union president approves material that is against union policy as previously determined by referendum then the president can be summarily dismissed from office.
In this case the Newman Society put the union president in a very difficult position. They didn't seek the approval of the president for their materials before they distributed them. Then when the president told them that the material could not go out with the official sanction of the union because it contravened settled policy, they cried foul.
It seems that this entire exercise was a cynical publicity stunt on behalf of the Newman Society to gain publicity by flagrantly violating rules for union-affiliated clubs - which they were clearly aware of. The Newman Society know full well that they could have distributed materials on campus as "UQ Catholics" or whatever.
However, what they really wanted to do was cause trouble for the conservative union exec and get some publicity out of the whole exercise. If the Newman Society REALLY felt passionate about this issue, they would assemble the 1500 signatures required to hold a new referendum instead of trying to manipulate the union president into breaking the very rules that he has to keep!
1--I did not judge the union president, I commented on actions taken. You should be able to distinguish. Talking about judgeing him isn't xactly germain.
2--If the rules mitigate the right to free speech, couldn't it be that the rules themselves are oppresive?
3--It's a poor argument when you have to attack those who have been told not to express their opinion as "cynical" and pulling a "publicity stunt". I distinctly remember the civil rights era struggles, when anything that was done or complained abouut was called a publicity stunt, or propaganda. It doesn't address the argument brought forward, it seeks to render it discreditied by existing.
4--there were literally years of action between the resolution in 93 and the actions taken in 08, including five years of pro-life public messaging. The reason brought forward seem disingenuous--more like the real reason is it is effective dissenting speech.
Question--why would you call yourself after a man whos liscence to be called a catholic theologian was revoked for error and disobedience? Is it a bick flying finger to orthodox catholicism, or a gesture of solidarity with Modernist influances? It certainly gives you zero credibility here.
1) Is it possible to separate judgments of a person's actions from judgments of a person's character? Actions aren't sinful per se, it is the human that it is the sinner.
2) Does the Catholic Church permit absolute free-speech amongst its priests and churches? ABsolutely not. Is it ok for a catholic priest to be pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, pro-pornography, pro-polygamy, pro-ordination of women etc? No. Is such "free speech" tolerated in Catholic theology? No. There are limits to free speech as determined by the tradition of the organisation. Our governments do not allow speech that deliberately provokes violence - whether of a racial, gender or sexual kind. Equally speech that denies the dead - ie. holocaust denial is equally sanctioned. Organisations demand certain ideologies of their members. The Newman Society is free to leave the UQ Union if it does not agree with its policies. Equally the Catholic Church may revoke the license and excommunicate a Catholic theologican if they deviate too far from established catholic theology and canonical law.
3) The Newman Society has been an affiliated club of the union for years and knew the union's rules and procedures. They chose this year - a year with a conservative president and an executive with deeply divided views on abortion - as the year to strike and attempt to gain maximum damage for their efforts.
4) Incorrect. No explicitly pro-life material has been officially sanctioned by the union president since the referendum.
I use this name satirically in order for you to recognise the logical incoherence in calling for free speech on the one hand yet supporting excommunication of the eponymic theologian precisely for exercising freedom of speech!
--"Actions aren't sinful, per se"--I somehow thing that this might be a misunderstanding, on either your part--if actions aren't sinful, then the one doing them isn't commiting sin, so the matter under scruiteny, the person isn't a sinner if the action isn't sinful.
Or, I could be having a educationaly challenged moment--I don't know what exactly that means.
--Does the catholic Church permit absolutely free speech-- IS a straw man at best. At worst you conflate the goals and ideas of aone form of civil government. Free Speech is an ideal in anglophone countries, but not a global ideal. However, the truths of Catholicism are global truths. If you don't think that, then you need to recognize that you're not catholic. Our faith isn't some sort of ethnicity--part of the definition of catholic is that one accept the teachings of the church.
--The Newman Society has been an affliated member for years-- Yes it has--it has since before this crap all started been distributing and displaying prolife lit--without the necessity of recieving prior approval from a tribunal of three students who want to shut them up. The duration of the Societies activities establish precident that they are in fact allowable.. Your pharase maximum damage illuminates something--you think that not having abortions is damaging. I think that killing off a quarter of a generation before birth is damaging. Free speech also includes the right to effective speech. YOu have, I think, just showed us the pit you dug. You are more concerned about the damage to the abortion cause, due to a conservative enviroment and divisions and doubts on the issue. So, you must silence and justify the silencing of anyone who speaks to theose doubt. Nicely fascistic.
--Noexplicitly pro-life tireature has been sanctioned-- So, whatever is not authorized is forbidden? Since when the the president of a non-governmental group, a group of students, authorized to become the arbiter of what is politically acceptable speech? The Gaulieiter of the Union isn't as catchy a title.
Dude I got news for you, you're ignorance of currents and controversy within the Church is manifest: Hans Kung was not excommunicated, he reamains a priest in good standing. His liscense to practice theology was revoked, not his ability to recieve the sacraments impaired. He retains his university position, (unless he has retired now) and teaches. He simply is no longer allowed to say that he is teaching Catholic Theology. It's sorta like not being allowed to write equations on the board and say it's poetry.
As to all tose priests and prelates who have been silenced, where are they? not a week goes by but some of them are speaking and chattering about the very subjects you said they don't.
Not sure how much of your response was actually relevant to the issue but whatevs.
Noone wants more abortions to occur. Everyone wants fewer abortions to occur. If the Catholic Student's Society is really serious about reducing abortion, they would get active around issues of rape, poverty and accurate information about contraception.
But of course they don't because it is all just a media stunt. Ignorant Redneck are you active around the issues of rape, poverty and contraception education as abortion prophylatics?
Hans--
I think you have just pissed me off. Really.
let's look at your last comment:
"Everyone wants fewer abortions to occure."--Not true. Abortion providers want to expand their businesses--and they move into areas where they can market their product--they have a vested interest in continuing to supply death-on-demand, to ever greater numbers. Rhetoric is irrelevant. What is relevant is the Abortion industry's patterns of action.
The rape/incest argument is a red herring: less than 1% of abortions are due to rape or incest. Unless, of course, you count statutory rape. Which is required by law to be reported, that PP isn't reporting, and is fighting tooth and nail not to report--because they want those girls to have abortions, and those who abuse young girls are good for business.
Contraception? Dude, contraception isn't the solution--it's part of the problem! One, as a Catholic do you think I'm going to say---"oh My! We must get these kids contraceptives so they won' t abort!" Get real, and get a clue--the contraceptive mentality engendered the abortion mentality--especially the pill.
Virtually every woman or gilr I know who has had an abortion was middle class--not poor. I can, in fact, think only of one woman who was poor who had an abortion. So skip the "poor impverished" excuse. Abortion is murder--poverty doesn't excuse murder, and the pverty demographic isn't the main source of business for abortuaries.
Am I active around these issues? Lets see--I spend a considerable part of my week as a volunteer--and a good part of that time is spend facilitating the work of a center that takes care--as in from formula, to diapers, to skill training--of women who are poor, and are expecting or have children.
My right arm will never be right again: it was broken permanantly by a drug dealer who was using college girls as stawberries in the building I lived in--I ran his ass out, and got jumped for it later.
Before I moved to where I live now I worked 40 hours a week in a feeding program that feed 70% women and kids.
The queen of the house and I have over the years taken in , between us, a half dozen poor or homeless women--to keep them off the streets and to help them begin the climb out of poverty.
So, what the hell have you done, besides sit around and talk about how Catholics haven't done anything?
Hans,
Since the Newman Society probably supported those activities since before those rules were enacted, and even after those rules were enacted, I would have thought that they have a reasonable expectation that their ongoing activities were acceptable or grandfathered in somehow. To suddenly vilianize this group and disallow their activities seems to me to be a media stunt on the part of the student government.
Meanwhile, at some point the student government will need to be elected for the next school year. Knowing where various candidates stand on these sorts of free-speech issues is very important for the students who take part in the election. If the organization chooses not to have certain types of free speech, it's important that this is known and understood. That way, the incoming students who happen to be Catholic can make an informed purchase of their education.
Ignorant Redneck,
"The rape/incest argument is a red herring: less than 1% of abortions are due to rape or incest. Unless, of course, you count statutory rape. Which is required by law to be reported, that PP isn't reporting, and is fighting tooth and nail not to report--because they want those girls to have abortions, and those who abuse young girls are good for business."
Thankfully, I am Australian and not American. We do not have "abortion businesses". Abortions are part of our public health system and funded by the taxpayer - similar to Canada. Many Australian abortion providers work in the public system rather than the private system.
Secondly, where do you get these statistics from? Reputable medical journals surveying epidemiology of incidence? I think not.
Thirdly, I really hope that you are active around the issues of rape - both by strangers, boyfriends, husbands and family members. You were strangely silent on this issue.
"Contraception? Dude, contraception isn't the solution--it's part of the problem! One, as a Catholic do you think I'm going to say---"oh My! We must get these kids contraceptives so they won' t abort!" Get real, and get a clue--the contraceptive mentality engendered the abortion mentality--especially the pill."
Fourthly, you are falling into the error of post hoc ergo propter hoc. In fact, abortions in most western countries which cover termination procedures in the public health system - like Australia and Canada are actually experiencing a long-term decline in the rate of abortion. Strangely, this seems to be connected to the uptake of birth control measures. Funny that! And no, I don't care if you are Catholic or not. Your arguments are fallacious regardless of your sectarian affiliation.
"Virtually every woman or gilr I know who has had an abortion was middle class--not poor. I can, in fact, think only of one woman who was poor who had an abortion. So skip the "poor impverished" excuse. Abortion is murder--poverty doesn't excuse murder, and the pverty demographic isn't the main source of business for abortuaries."
Fifthly, I'm really not interested in anecdotal evidence as it is scientifically meaningless. Middle class people can be ignorant about contraception and middle class women also get raped too.
Finally, I actually a woman. I run a rape counselling centre and am a survivor of incest which resulted in a pregnancy which I was and still am proud to terminate - when I was 13. Obviously I post under an appropriately named pseudonym.
rosiec,
"Since the Newman Society probably supported those activities since before those rules were enacted, and even after those rules were enacted, I would have thought that they have a reasonable expectation that their ongoing activities were acceptable or grandfathered in somehow. To suddenly vilianize (sic!) this group and disallow their activities seems to me to be a media stunt on the part of the student government."
The union policy was established via a referendum of all students. The overwhelming majority voted for the union to formally support "free, safe abortion on demand".
The current union executive is the most conservative executive in over 15 years. The Catholic Society are free to disaffiliate at any time. There is no penalty in doing so.
Hans--
OK, you're from OZ. In the US, the largest abortion provider is Planned Parenthood. Which posted several millions in "income in excess of expenses"--profit, if they weren't trying to hid the fact. As it is, they recieved over 300 million dollars in federal grants in their last reporting year, they are supposedly a non-profit. There are also many proprietary (for profit) abortuaries.
As to being "strangely silent" on the rape issue: P.P. has been caught, nation wide, falsifying records to cover up statutory rapes, so that the girls involved would still get abortions. The one that sticks in my head, was a girl who told the counselor tht she was 15, and her boy friend was 22, and didn't want him to get in trouble. The couselor told her to lie. So--rather than get ephibiphilic rapists off the street, P.P. cover for them. I don't think I'm being strangely silent. Moreover, did you not read my last comment? I went into a drug dealers squat, and physically rescued a young woman who he was useing as a strawberry--a girl who is kept so strung out on drugs that she becomes a sex toy. I am now crippled from his revenge.
"Where do you get these statistics from? Reputable medical journals... . I think not."--Sorrey Ma'am, I think SO.
"I'm not interested in anectdotal evidence"...Of course not. My lived life, a life that has itself been touched by abortion, is not relevent, because it contradicts your politics. By dismissing my experience as "unscientific", you are then free to pretend that I don't have experience.
"I actually a woman"--I don't care. The assumption of special competence or authority bbased upon ones sex--is sexism.
"voted overwealmingly"--1900 out of 30,000 is not overwealmingly. Especially when you realize that 1400 voted against and 200 abstained. That means that 1900 members of the union voted for, and 1600 did not. That is not an overwalming plurality. Besides, this was not a plebiscite--what, I wonder, did the other 26,500 students who didn't get a vote want? A student union isn't the sort of body who should regulate the speech of a free people, on a university campus.
1) Is it possible to separate judgments of a person's actions from judgments of a person's character? Actions aren't sinful per se, it is the human that it is the sinner.
So the act of murdering another human is not a sin? Last I checked MURDER was one of the top 10 sins!
What freaking planet you from HK?
Equally the Catholic Church may revoke the license and excommunicate a Catholic theologican if they deviate too far from established catholic theology and canonical law.
Darn tooting right! And thanks be to God that the Church does that! Who the hell (outside of Satan) wants heretics in the church, kinda defeats the purpose of what the Church stands for, doncha think??? Last I checked they where in the business of saving souls and if your gonna support the homosexual agenda/lifestyle/woman ordinations etc. you honestly can not stand as part of the Church since you are going totally against it...but I guess that was missed by you HK!
Noone wants more abortions to occur. Everyone wants fewer abortions to occur.
what fucking dream world are you living in HK? Everyone wants fewer abortions??? You are fucking joking right???
Here is another wakeup for you...being poor, raped in school, already too many kids etc. does not warrant the MURDER OF AN INNOCENT CHILD!
Hans--
Thankfully, I am Australian and not American. We do not have "abortion businesses". Abortions are part of our public health system and funded by the taxpayer - similar to Canada. Many Australian abortion providers work in the public system rather than the private system.
DUH! Of course you are in the abortion business..unless you do not contribute via taxes to your government. You and anybody else that chips in to support your public health system is in the business.
HANS IS A MURDERER AND IS DARN PROUD OF IT...how sad HK that you are still proud of the fact that you sinned...took a life and boast about it!
You know I am sorry that you where a victim of incest but one wrong does not justify another...and MURDER is a wrong!
YOu really do disgust me HK....a woman that boasts and is proud of killing her child regardless of how that child came to be is no better than shit, IMHO!
Karin,
I wish you would quit sugar coating all your posts--we want to know what you really think!
Hans,
If you're not American, then maybe we're comparing apples and pistachios. I gather that your perspective is in the light of how such things would be handled in Australia. I can well believe that they are very different from the way such things are done in the US. If your posts reflect that reality, then the differences of opinion make a lot more sense.
For the record, most American schools have a blanket student organization government. All student activities need to belong to this organization in order to be on campus (so there would be a penalty for disaffiliation), but it's pretty rare for the student government to effectively censor the individual activities.
Indeed, even if the student government publishes a statement about an opinion of that government, the individaul activities are rarely required to sign on to those opinions. It is a reasonable expectation that not all students will agree with such statements and will act according to their own consciences. Since this school has chosen to do so and to act upon it in this way, the prospective Catholic students need to know about this so they can make decisions appropriate to their consciences.
The fact that you say you are proud to have had an abortion, seen in light of your other comment that no one wants more abortions to occur seems a bit illogical...meanwhile, if you don't want anecdotal evidence, why offer your own?
IR-
Sorry my dear...but you know us New Yorkers are no good at sugar coating things...I for one tell it like it is!
Dont like it ...well you know what they say ;)
I bet Hans is a vegatarian.
If not a vegatarian, than a huge animal righs supporter.
After a quick study(and twelve years of constant experiance) I have decide that Hans is an addict. She longs to give up meat and save the forest dwellers but, due to the all in-powering urge to kill something, she has turn to her own kind. The terriable wieght of peoples eys judgeing her. Watching the suffering caused by them, as they eat beef steaks and chicken wings, has made a shattered husk of her mind. Now she draws strength from a flawed moment of bad-judgemment. If God had only been there, was able to help her, save her from the moment of her weakness! Yet, was this really God's fault? Life is bad in mean terrable ways. At times the test of living with the burden of faith so heavy. Who was there to help? To reach out too? Only the misled are so quick to strike at one lost stray. Forgiveness is no longer seen as a need, or even a relevent consept, as the serpant coils close to hold her, and comfort the poor lamb. All the while CHOKING the last cries of challenge to the deeds of the past. Killing her, turning life into killing, and none but the serpant there to comfort. See it striking at those that would question, those that wish she could see past the scales covering her eyes. She must break the hold, or fall to the lie that strangles her. But how do you reach a person who, with life only a filled with the comfort of one that is killing them, now sees murder as only killing? Answer: GO EAT A STEAK YOU PAGON VEG-HEAD BEFORE YOU CHOKE ON YOUR OWN MEAT!!!
Whoa!!!!!
I can't believe he said that!
Gee--I guess there's no anger here!
Hey Hans,
How come, when you look at long term trends, where ever there is sex and contreceptive education, there is a rise in unwanted pregnancy?
And did you notice, that the decline in abortions coincides with a decline in public approval of abortion?
I think Abortion Rights Supporters are really all about themselves--being a law unto yourself must be very satisfying.
Exactly... Now someone get Hans a beef steak, without the rapping, ASAP. Once you go beef, your never want fou-fowl again!
The Gospel of Matthew says:
"By their works you shall know them."
It really is instructive to observe such love, kindness and compassion from fellow Christians.
Sadie says:
"How come, when you look at long term trends, where ever there is sex and contreceptive education, there is a rise in unwanted pregnancy?
And did you notice, that the decline in abortions coincides with a decline in public approval of abortion?"
Incorrect. Abortion is on the decrease in almost all anglo-saxon countries (except the US). In all those countries, abortion is part of the public health system as is access to contraception. The countries with the most dramatic decline in abortion are in the scandinavian bloc which have very rigorous sexual health education.
Rosiec said:
"For the record, most American schools have a blanket student organization government. All student activities need to belong to this organization in order to be on campus (so there would be a penalty for disaffiliation), but it's pretty rare for the student government to effectively censor the individual activities.
Indeed, even if the student government publishes a statement about an opinion of that government, the individaul activities are rarely required to sign on to those opinions. It is a reasonable expectation that not all students will agree with such statements and will act according to their own consciences. Since this school has chosen to do so and to act upon it in this way, the prospective Catholic students need to know about this so they can make decisions appropriate to their consciences."
This is not the case in Australia. unaffiliated clubs and groups are free to distribute whatever they like without the interference of the union. However if clubs affiliate to the union then they do need to ensure that their material adheres to union policy. The solution is simple - either disaffiliate or collect enough signatures to call a referendum of students in order to change the policy.
Ignorant Redneck says:
"I went into a drug dealers squat, and physically rescued a young woman who he was useing as a strawberry--a girl who is kept so strung out on drugs that she becomes a sex toy. I am now crippled from his revenge."
If true then this was a very noble and selfless action. I really pray that one day your country gets a decent healthcare system to look after you.
""Where do you get these statistics from? Reputable medical journals... . I think not."--Sorrey Ma'am, I think SO."
Feel free to post references I.R.
""voted overwealmingly"--1900 out of 30,000 is not overwealmingly. Especially when you realize that 1400 voted against and 200 abstained. That means that 1900 members of the union voted for, and 1600 did not. That is not an overwalming plurality. Besides, this was not a plebiscite--what, I wonder, did the other 26,500 students who didn't get a vote want? A student union isn't the sort of body who should regulate the speech of a free people, on a university campus."
The Catholic Society are free to petition a new referendum or simply disaffiliate from the union.
And yes, I eat meat. I prefer meat that is kosher according to the provisions of Leviticus.
"Where do you get these statistics from? Reputable medical journals... . I think not."--Sorrey Ma'am, I think SO.
"I'm not interested in anectdotal evidence"...Of course not. My lived life, a life that has itself been touched by abortion, is not relevent, because it contradicts your politics. By dismissing my experience as "unscientific", you are then free to pretend that I don't have experience.
"I actually a woman"--I don't care. The assumption of special competence or authority bbased upon ones sex--is sexism.
"voted overwealmingly"--1900 out of 30,000 is not overwealmingly. Especially when you realize that 1400 voted against and 200 abstained. That means that 1900 members of the union voted for, and 1600 did not. That is not an overwalming plurality. Besides, this was not a plebiscite--what, I wonder, did the other 26,500 students who didn't get a vote want? A student union isn't the sort of body who should regulate the speech of a free people, on a university campus.
Hans,
Well, I guess we do indeed have two completely different college models to work from and therefore our understanding of how they should work are very different. In your country the way things happened sounds more understandable, but still reeks of censorship to me. I would hope that such a thing could never happen on so large a scale in America.
Again, my concern is that incoming students know this policy because the Catholic students may want to spend their education dollars elsewhere. When a year's worth of college costs so very much, and when one's credits could be lost in a transfer, these people need that sort of disclosure.
Hans did you think your opinion could change the minds of those that love hanging out with the IR? Most of us will call you on it. We would not let someone get away with outrageous and obvious errors in judgement or opinion.
Speaking for myself, Been there, done that, have a stack of t-shirts to prove it, from the warped side of the world. I used to be very pro-choice, I supported friends who aborted, and thought the Catholic Church was archaic. So I ran around with New Age and feel-gooders not true "do-gooders".
I thought I was a "good person".
Then I was granted a gift. From unexpected places. An Atheist I worked with convinced me quietly that abortion was wrong. A Lutheran lady made me comfortable to be Christian and my rosary welding Grandmother showed me the beauty of Catholocism. I know many people in my life prayed for me.
Don't be too hard on IR and Friends. Paraphrasing Tim Gunn on Project Runway, we can recognize the person stuck in the monkey house. I think you just might be stuck in the monkey house and can't smell the stench of your society anymore. You won't find anyone here who could possibly condone or say "I agree to dissagree". We'll call you on it. And don't expect it to be sweet. Yes you get more flies with honey, but who wants flies?
May God Bless you in your life, I'll be praying for you.
"If true then this was a very noble and selfless action." Well, silly little Hans, if your ordeal with incest is true, then that is still not an excuse to murder a child coming from such. No child, whatever the circumstances of its conception, has an excuse to be murdered. EVER. No matter what a rape or incest brings about, it is never the child's fault, and the child should not be punished for something it wasn't even around to cause.
On another note, NEVER ACUSE MY DAD OF BEING A LIAR AGAIN, BITCH! I was at the hospital the next day following such a violent act. I know this was an actual occurance, and for about a year or two, I was ready to kill the sex-crazed bastard who did it just because he had wanted to keep getting laid. From now on, I suggest that you watch your choice of words.
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